France and integration

[eclectica]

France has decided to ban the wearing of religious clothing in their schools. This falls in line with their view of the secular republican state. It is also an attempt to integrate people. Is it possible for people to be integrated and to accept their diversity too? To me it seems the more diversity you accept, the less integration there is.

My problem with what France is doing is that they have decided what is acceptable and what is unacceptable to wear, based on whether they deem it religious or not. Why is a head scarf considered a Muslim symbol and not a holder for someone's dreadlocks? Why is the pancake that is worn on the head considered Jewish rather than being a cover for the bald spot? Why is the cross that someone wears considered to be a crucifix rather than a butt plug?

I believe there have to be standards though. For example, in Florida, a Muslim woman wanted to have her driver's license photo taken with her veil on. She was ordered to take it off for the photo. The towel-headed Sheiks who go through airport security should have to take off their towels to be examined. That's no more invasive than me taking off my boots.

Now that I think about it, I've gone to court and was told to take my hat off, not for security reasons but for respect of the institution. Yet ethnic groups can leave their head adornments on. Is that fair? How about if I had a religion that didn't allow me to eat pork or take exams on certain days. Should that be accomodated?

Once they accomodate one religion then out of fairness they have to accomodate another. In the past the ACLU has sued some towns which had a nativity Christ scene, but dropped the lawsuit once a Jewish menorah was placed next to it. So there are only two religions then? I could create my own religion and make my own rules. It should be just as valid as other religions which have millions of followers. No one is in a position to judge the validity of my religion. Suppose my religion is that Michael Moore is god. Well then I'm going to wear my baseball cap in court just like all the other religious folks can.

You can see that the accomodation of religions is a slippery slope, and France has chosen a more consistent approach. But it seems they've gone too far. Instead of banning religious attire, they could make a general dress code. For example: no head adornments, no shorts, no jewelry, no covering of the face. That would be the fairest thing to do.

As much as it seems that France is trying harder to integrate people, when you realize that they are trying to make them fit into a mold then it's not a pleasant type of integration. Real integration should be an exchange, where both parties gain something from each other and borrow from each other's culture. Integration should be a dialogue between cultures, not a monologue.

I've not been to France, but my wife went to college there. She tells me that they are snobs and unwelcoming of people who are different. Diversity is tolerated less there. She told me of a Black person who has AIDS and is a French citizen, who refuses to go to France for medical treatment even though the medical coverage is better there. The reason why, is that she feels like a piece of shit in France as a Black person, whereas in the United States, she is treated better.

[eclectica]

Two tapes by Ayman al-Zawahiri were released on 2004-02-24. The text of them can be read here (http://www.masnet.org/news.asp?id=989). One of them, released on Al-Arabiya TV, referred to the hijab ban in France. Here are excerpts:
The latest decision by the French president [Jacques Chirac] to ban Muslims from covering their heads at school shows once again the grudge the Western crusaders have against Islam.

France is the country of freedom which defends freedom to show the body and to be immoral and depraved. In France you're free to show yourself but not to dress modestly.

The headscarf ban in France falls in the same category as the torching of villages and their inhabitants in Afghanistan, the destruction of houses over the heads of their occupants in Palestine, the massacre of children and the theft of oil in Iraq.

The headscarf ban is not restricted to France, but a policy implemented by the crusader-Zionists through their agents in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia and elsewhere in the countries of Islam.

This is a new sign of the Crusader hatred which Westerners harbor against Muslims while they boast of freedom, democracy and human rights.

[Dollar_Girl]

Religion is a touchy subject because everyone has many different opinions as to what is just, what is injust, what is loyal and what is betrayal. Many times a situation forces us to adjust to the current environment for survival. Some place their faith before survival, some dont seperate the two, while others will take a perhaps different approach. It was rumoured in my family that my grandmother was jewish before the Germans invaded during WWII, but she secretly converted in order to save her and her families life. Some would view this as a disgrace, others would view it as survival... but the truth would never be known, for she refused to ever speak of it and she is now dead. If there is a ring of truth to the 'rumour' then i would call it a survival method. Then you have the era of communists - as the popular summary goes, communism had no religion, thus i was baptised illegaly by a priest who risked imprisonment and even death. Religion has always been a cause of survival, death, rebellion, justice, injustice... it alone is one of the most historically contraversial institutions man has dealt with and been a part of.

Individualism and freedom are feared by many ... perhaps countries view it as a risk to their survival. Nationalism, religion, equality, justice, free speach... everything has to be fought for, because everything is dangerous, including supression and rebellion which tend to be viewed as security gaurds or safety methods... but beneath the blanket of protection, you have that unrest and rebellion brewing amongst the crowd - naturally.

I dont believe people should be restircted in their religious headwear on a day-to-day casual basis, however i do feel it was necessary for the woman as eclectica mentioned, to remove her headwear when having her drivers lisence photo taken. Just as she needs a drivers license to drive legally - a precaution taken to enhance freedom, she should automatically be required to have a clear photograph of her taken - another precaution.

Another example is a muslim man refusing to wear a helmut while riding a bike, because he didnt want to take off his traditional head gear. I mean... nobody wears helmuts coz they're cool or stylish... u wear them so u dont crack ur head open. Maybe an open head is worth wearing ur religeous headgear when bike riding.


When i was going to highschool, i used to feel sorry for the muslim girls there because of the clothes they were wearing - soley because they had to have heavy headwear, long sleeves and long pants and socks during horrible summer heat and humidity... we had no air conditioning and i could only imagine how hot they were, if i was BOILING in a sports skirt and t-shirt, however i never questioned their need or reasons for wearing it.

[nicobie]

Yea $...

I was sent to a catholic school where we had to wear uniforms.

About 7th grade some of the girls were sprouting big breasts. The Nuns made them wear the same uniforms as the younger kids.

Unfortunitaly the standard uniform had these wide suspender type things that made girls with boobs look dorkie. I'm talkin' about the waistband riding really high.

My Mom raised 'holy' hell (I have 4 younger sisters) along with a few other of the moms and it was all to no avail. The perv preist won.

[eclectica]

People send their kids to Catholic schools, thinking that the discipline is better there. Often the parents are not Catholic. Also, it is a cheap version of a private school, because it is subsidized by God, who is for the most part a non-profit deity.

I am disturbed by seeing women in veils, because I am disturbed whenever I see people who are enslaved. I have mixed feelings about their plight, and sometimes I feel it is their fault for going along with it. They must feel that what they are doing is righteous, and I figure that they are contemptuous of women who don't wear veils. They bear responsibility for their culture; it is not just the fault of the men. So are such people worth setting free?

The reason Bush's war against Islam is a failure is because he offers as a replacement, a corrupt greedy ideology. The way to win against a religion like Islam would be to encourage the liberation of women; not through the dropping of bombs on their countries.

Someday all the religions will unite in their utter contempt of the human spirit and their desire to keep us ignorant and underdeveloped.

In order to develop a race of supermen, we must accept the Dionysian in ourselves.

Armageddon is coming, and the showdown will occur between those who celebrate the human spirit, and those who want to stifle it.

[eclectica]

Originally posted by Dollar_Girl
Another example is a muslim man refusing to wear a helmut while riding a bike, because he didnt want to take off his traditional head gear.
You don't need a helmet, when God is your copilot (http://www.tatom.org/images/god%20is%20my%20copilot.jpg).

[Dollar_Girl]

Originally posted by nicobie
Yea $...

I was sent to a catholic school where we had to wear uniforms.

About 7th grade some of the girls were sprouting big breasts. The Nuns made them wear the same uniforms as the younger kids.

Unfortunitaly the standard uniform had these wide suspender type things that made girls with boobs look dorkie. I'm talkin' about the waistband riding really high.

My Mom raised 'holy' hell (I have 4 younger sisters) along with a few other of the moms and it was all to no avail. The perv preist won.


geez, talk about ruining a girl's self-confidence from a really early age :beer: :coward:

[jcmd62]

Well nic maybe the suspender thingys helped make those maturing girls look like those little boys that preists love to molest.

The latest decision by the French president [Jacques Chirac] to ban Muslims from covering their heads at school shows once again the grudge the Western crusaders have against Islam.

France is the country of freedom which defends freedom to show the body and to be immoral and depraved. In France you're free to show yourself but not to dress modestly.

The headscarf ban in France falls in the same category as the torching of villages and their inhabitants in Afghanistan, the destruction of houses over the heads of their occupants in Palestine, the massacre of children and the theft of oil in Iraq.

The headscarf ban is not restricted to France, but a policy implemented by the crusader-Zionists through their agents in Egypt, Turkey, Tunisia and elsewhere in the countries of Islam.

This is a new sign of the Crusader hatred which Westerners harbor against Muslims while they boast of freedom, democracy and human rights.
What a complete crock of shit.




Don't be too hard on poor ole France, They are just liable to surrender.

I'm pretty sure the last time they surrendered it was to a Girl Scout troop.

And Mr E a question: Since when has "fairness" ever been used to decide anything when it comes to government decisions?

I agree with the freedom of religion, and agree that people should be allowed to practice said religion in the "privacy" of their own homes and churches, but I don't want them knocking on my door trying to SELL me on their religion, and most importantly religion should not be used to bypass "public" laws, rules and or regulations.

I think I agree with you E, and its a good thing I am not a judge, because Turbin Dude wouldn't be wearing his rag on his head in my courtroom.

On the lighter side.........Ever walk into your local bank in the middle of winter and realize at exactly the same time as every teller and security guard does, that your standing in line with your hands in your coat pockets and still wearing your ski mask?

[eclectica]

Here Dr. Ayman al-Zawahiri points out the hypocrisy of Liberalism, with its intolerance and double standards:
"France is the country of freedom which defends freedom to show the body and to be immoral and depraved. In France you're free to show yourself but not to dress modestly."

Should Liberalism tolerate intolerance?

[eclectica]

Supporting diversity of cultures is good but only up to a point. Diversity is good when it enriches all groups involved when they interact with each other. But I think that when people all speak their own languages that is a bad form of diversity, because the differences in languages divide people. I would like to see everybody in the World speak the same language, and I believe it would help promote World peace.
:hippie:

[Dollar_Girl]

hey buddy, with the speed of economic integration, we ain't far off from a universal culture and a universal languge! mwuahahha

[Criminal_Sniper]

thats why im learning history and languages of many countries
its my life cause or something
we can be one but not be all the same
thats why people have no peace they don't believe that
they say "oh we don't want to change u"
BULLSHIT!!!!!
all people want is for people to be like them
thats why we have war
to many differences that people can't get over
stupid things like (god based) religions are a bit too far to say im going to start a war over because u believe in something else
they are both from the lack of explanation of higher things we can't possibly determine right now let alone in the past
religion is a hole filler like a pothole
the more people that go over it the deeper hole gets again
now if only we could pave a new road hey
maybe we can?
we are smart enough
or at least willing enough
gooood luck to us :D

[Criminal_Sniper]

and a world language what would it be closest to?
weve shown that there are languages about as different as they can get over our world
would it be like french or english? german or polish? italian or russian?
chinese or japanese?
either way even a mix of them would make it difficult for some easier for others
thats why we just gotta learn learn learn
the more we know the happier in the world around us we are
though sadder because of all the stupid little things we don't seem to be able to change cause people are so stubborn

[Criminal_Sniper]

the problem with that Tim is that heaven is a non-phsysical entity
if it is physical then we would be able to see it AND not be able to get into space
two things that are not the case
for God to stop people from building it would be an indication it could be reached
NOW WHERE IS IT?
i think its pretty clear God is not real
ive heard that he just did it to make a point
theres a lot of that going ontwisting it to how they see fit

[Criminal_Sniper]

there was supposed to be a space between it dude
but i meant how christian especially but most God based religions claim their god to be supreme but all come up with the same arguments
well they aren't even arguments they are simply claims from an undereducated viewpoint
now we are becoming more and more eduacated about this world beginnings we are moving further from faith
scientists u could say use our faith in believing them
that would shallow because scientists usually arent believed when they have found something important on the evolution side
its all part of christianity and its claim to cover it over with faith
what about evolution?
they say we have no proof
we have a lot of proof just not all

this from people who use basically no proof in the guiding on an entire world into eternity

ive heard that the purpose of babel was to seperate the people
now ive know for a while that there are fosils of people that lived 160,000 years ago in ethiopia
the other purpose was to stop them building the tower to get to heaven

now it seems to people that have studied these things that people already spoke different languages we dispersed through the lands and couldn't have got to heaven anyway cause flesh isnt allowed to enter heaven and it is only a spiritual place

lies after lies the bible will never hold true light other than to the blind who are too stupid to look further

if it's only the morals that count that why not get rid of God?
just like the Gods of the Greeks, Egyptian, Early Jews, etc.. they will be forgotten

[mekajinn]

i don't like the french today... we shall be avenged dammit.

[nicobie]

i don't like the french today... we shall be avenged dammit.


talk about kunts...

hahahahahaha