criticism is healthy in p2p

[eclectica]

There are some p2p operators who can't laugh at themselves and won't tolerate criticism of themselves by others. They take advantage of the feeling of community to have their supporters blindly follow them. They depict their critics as enemies of the community. They blame their shortcomings on others rather than taking responsibility. This leads to a culture of blind obedience and no dissent. It is important for dissent to be tolerated in a p2p community. All professional operators should expect criticism rather than trying to crush it. It can only be good to have dissent, because it strengthens the community. Problems are dealt with rather than swept under the rug.

SoulSeek (http://www.slsknet.org/) has had some trouble throughout the years. It has changed domain names twice. First it was soulseek.org, then slsk.org, and now it is slsknet.org. The domain slsk.org was acquired by a dialer program (http://www.p2p-dialer.de/), which calls toll numbers and runs up the phone bills of people without their knowledge. People going to slsk.org could have installed the dialer program thinking they were installing Soulseek. I never read any explanation from Nir or Rosalind Arbel regarding this loss of the domain. The least they could do after putting their members at risk would be to explain how it happened, but they haven't said anything. I wonder if they sold their domain name for some extra cash.

One time in the Slyck forums someone posted a link to a Soulseek parody site (http://www.3-3-3.org/p2p/Soulseek/). I found it amusing and reposted the link in the Soulseek forum (http://slskboard.savagenews.com/). Afterwards it was deleted. I then got several instant messages over the course of a week, from user OrtaliGoddessOfPriveleges on the Soulseek program. That is the user name that Rosalind Arbel uses on the Soulseek program. In the messages Rosalind first asked me why I posted the link on their board, and I explained I found them amusing. Then I got the message that the parody site was hurtful and malicious to them, considering all the hard work she and Nir were doing for the community. A month later she messaged me to ask if I was the one who owned the parody site, and if I knew who owned it. Judging by her attitude and anger, I feel that if I were to say it was my site, then I would have been banned from the Soulseek program and forums. This is the type of bullying which makes a p2p operator unprofessional. The person who made the Soulseek parody site will likely be labeled as an enemy of the Soulseek community by Rosalind. But we ought to appreciate someone who makes a funny, satirical site. We ought not to coddle p2p operators who can't get their shit straight, and fuck their users in the process. If we are to coddle them then we might as well give them the gold medal for p2p's Special Olympics.

[eclectica]

Originally posted by harby
this link (http://www.netfirms.com/) from the parody actually looks good..i'm thinking about looking into it for my own site, phantasmagorick.
That $10 "per month" at netfirms.com only works if you pay for a whole year in advance, which I won't ever do because after you pay for your year you get screwed. Mekajinn's webhoster (http://www.ace-host.net/standardplan.html) has a good deal for $10 a month.

[assorted]

i got some bad news for you. if a totally free, non-profit, but somehow centrally controlled p2p community ever takes off, it will be more exclusive, resistant to criticism, ban-crazy and fascist then any for-profit client. it's just the way these things work.

and, of course, any non-profit community that has no controls over it will be brought down or severely hampered by the same lack of controls. gnutella is an example right now. this is just the way social groups work, deal with it.

[eclectica]

Originally posted by assorted
i got some bad news for you. if a totally free, non-profit, but somehow centrally controlled p2p community ever takes off, it will be more exclusive, resistant to criticism, ban-crazy and fascist then any for-profit client. it's just the way these things work.

and, of course, any non-profit community that has no controls over it will be brought down or severely hampered by the same lack of controls. gnutella is an example right now. this is just the way social groups work, deal with it.
There are many successful and healthy liberal communities which tolerate criticism and dissent, such as the open source community. I believe that the culture of a p2p community ought to be modeled in the same way.

[assorted]

Originally posted by eclectica
There are many successful and healthy liberal communities which tolerate criticism and dissent, such as the open source community. I believe that the culture of a p2p community ought to be modeled in the same way.

I guess we have different experiences that we are drawing from. In my experience, non-profit groups are very clickish, extremely elitist and intolerant of criticism. It seems to go with the territory because basically all one is getting from the job or the scene is social power and/or some kinda feeling of moral superiority as opposed to cash; so for peeps in these circles to feel better about themselves they tend to use said power/superiority on folks that dissent. But again, that's just my experience.

[Criminal_Sniper]

3 letters
GNU
if your saying open source (and similar things) dont work ya wrong ;)

[Criminal_Sniper]

and elitist id have to say it better than noobish lol :P

AND i wish theyd stop trying to pack crap into soulseek
i want to search dl and upload
and the chat is ful of whining *BAD* music critics

[chinaski]

Just fyi moron matis keynell did not make that page and he is actually a long time user and forum moderator.

Its a free service if you want it to be free so why the hell are you complaining. Nir put his effort into writing the program and he probably doesnt want to let it get huge and get too much RIAA attention so that it can stay around longer and probably keep making more money(this is just my personal opinion on why he isnt expanding it even though he obviously has the means to do so). I think that this is a good idea. He probably knows what he is doing especially since he worked for napster and saw what happened to them. If you dont want to pay dont pay and when the server is down shut the fuck up and be greatfull for the music you just illegally downloaded for free while the server was up you dipshits. As far as I know the server is set at around 100,000 users max right now and if you donate you automatically get access to the server even when it is full.

By the way I love the slsk.org dialer, if anyone is stupid enough to install that shit they deserve it. And the only people stupid enough to install that are the morons coming over from kazaa that are just going to share screechy mp3's and mainstream trash that is eventually going to get the server shut down. If nir puposfully sold the domain to them as you so ignorantly claim eclectica then i applaud him for turning away a few more kazaa refugees.

If you would have spent 10 minutes on the slsk forums before you wrote this shitty uninformed whining bullshit about how you cant get your precious free music online 24/7 from a free program when you know nothing about slsk or the community and how it began and used to be you would have found out matis is a frequent poster and moderator of the forums.

fuck you eclectica, make your own p2p network

[velocity]

The guy who made the Soulseek parody site, Matis Keynell, will likely be labeled as an enemy of the Soulseek community by Rosalind.
Matis Keynell doesn't have anything to do with that site
he probably just pissed some guy , author of this page , who wrote his name & email address to piss him back & generally cause trouble

[eclectica]

Originally posted by chinaski
matis keynell did not make that page and he is actually a long time user and forum moderator.
I edited the original post so that it no longer credits Matis Keynell as being the author of the parody site.

Originally posted by chinaski
Its a free service if you want it to be free so why the hell are you complaining. If you dont want to pay dont pay and when the server is down shut the fuck up and be greatfull for the music you just illegally downloaded for free while the server was up you dipshits.
I wasn't criticizing the Soulseek program, and it is one of the two p2p programs that I use. The point of my post was that criticism and dissent should be welcomed in a healthy community, and people shouldn't think that they are above criticism, even if they are making no money. There ought to be professional standards for p2p operators, and part of being professional means to tolerate criticism and dissent. Your attitude is the type of attitude that I am opposed to.

Originally posted by chinaski
make your own p2p network
That is like the argument some people make when someone criticizes their own country or government; they say: "if you don't like it here then leave the country". You ought to welcome and appreciate criticism, because it will help improve Soulseek.

[assorted]

Originally posted by chinaski
Just fyi moron matis keynell did not make that page and he is actually a long time user and forum moderator.

Its a free service if you want it to be free so why the hell are you complaining. Nir put his effort into writing the program and he probably doesnt want to let it get huge and get too much RIAA attention so that it can stay around longer and probably keep making more money(this is just my personal opinion on why he isnt expanding it even though he obviously has the means to do so). I think that this is a good idea. He probably knows what he is doing especially since he worked for napster and saw what happened to them. If you dont want to pay dont pay and when the server is down shut the fuck up and be greatfull for the music you just illegally downloaded for free while the server was up you dipshits. As far as I know the server is set at around 100,000 users max right now and if you donate you automatically get access to the server even when it is full.

It's kind of funny and ironic that you flamed him when his only point was that people involved in soulseek seem a little sensitive to criticism.

[Criminal_Sniper]

how many parody kazaa sites?
how many warnings?

soulseek=1
kazaa=1225463267367536 (total guess but close no doubt)

soulseek is open to criticism
soulseek is one of the best
rock on soulseek

ive heard a million times that edonkey rules
no way i havent been able to get 1 rar'ed album
emule is the sweat from my balls
i hope the developers are eaten by wildboars

[eclectica]

Here's a series of instant messaging that I had with user OrtaliGoddessOfPriveleges.

[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] how charming :)
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] so i am a bully?
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] why dont you say it to my "face"?
[eclectica] it's easier for me to get my points across in forums than in instant messages.
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] well having read your post,
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] i see that you think the site is critical
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] rather than slanderous
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] but honestly, if you think i was being unprofessional or bullying, you should have said so
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] We ought not to coddle p2p operators who can't get their shit straight, and fuck their users in the process.
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] how are we fucking our users?
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] i am surprised that you continue to use the program if you have such strong ideas on this subject
[eclectica] well i use the program because I like it. I also criticize it because I like it. I think you are too sensitive.
[OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges] LOL
At this point in the conversation I was remotely disconnected from the Soulseek server, and was unable to log back in.

[eclectica]

I did get back in again to the server after a few minutes. And I had an even lengthier conversation with Rosalind.

I can not help but being a womanizer; woe is me.
:nope: :eatout:

[eclectica]

Originally posted by harby
quoting private conversations publicly has always been considered to be in 'bad taste' by anyone everyone that i've ever known and or spoken to
Okay, I'll edit it out.

Speaking of bad taste
:eatout:

[eclectica]

I've been thinking about what harby said in regards to it being bad form to post private conversations. I agree, but I wonder if an exception can be made when the figure is a public one or if the subject at hand is public. If you receive a letter from a public figure, it's not a violation of private trust to post such a letter publicly.

In the Soulseek forums they say if you have trouble with your priveleges then you can contact OrtaliGoddessOfPriveleges. It is posted in this thread (http://slskboard.savagenews.com/index.php?showtopic=11751). Here is the text from that thread:
"For those having problems, please contact OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges (be sure to spell it correctly, with proper capitalization!). You will be assisted most quickly and easily if you do so on the CLIENT, rather than the boards. To do so, highlight her name as I have written above, copy (Ctrl-C), right click over your userlist on the client (right above the rooms!), and select 'Add to list'. Paste her name into the field given (Ctrl-V), and there you have it. Easy. Please provide your email address used for your transaction or your Paypal transaction number from your receipt, so that it can be looked up, as well as confirming your correct name. The most common problem is spaces entered before the name, be it a little bit of a bug in the Paypal forms, or accident. If she is not online, a message can be left and it will be found as soon as she logs in."
Rosalind has a special professional role there and I feel that it's okay to post the exchange that I had with her. OrtaliGoddessOfPriveleges is not a regular user and shares zero files, and always appears as offline.

[Proteus93]

Hi there. There's just a couple points that I had noticed that I thought I'd clear up:

Kinda going backwards here, OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges is very, very rarely offline. Considering that I am on the client nearly all the time, I'd have a pretty good idea of such. She's usually away, but there's a difference. No bother, really.

This isn't a matter of privileges, so to use my forum quote as a basis of reasoning is somewhat unusual. It just has nothing to do with the discussion, so I'm somewhat confused as to what the bearing it has is. Being a public figure or not doesn't change the validity of private messages... people are still people, regardless of any sort of 'status' they may have. It's generally not good practice, but she doesn't seem disturbed about it, so it's kinda redundant. Just stating a point.

As for being remotely disconnected and unable to get back on... server went down. It's Soulseek. It does that.

As for tolerance on networks, I've used DC++ (part of the 'open source community', as you know)... and what I saw was the most intolerant, elite types, with ban happy fingers. God forbid anyone dare criticize them. Others generally don't offer any sort of community, so it's simply ridiculous to state that they 'accept it'. Nuff said, there.

To point the finger at someone else (in this case, matis_keynell) is not a parody. It's not satire. It's blatently trying to make someone look bad, and one of the most cowardly things I can think of someone doing. Furthermore, it goes on to enforce the fact that this specific site was made with only one intention in mind - to slander and disrupt. You list me one part of the 'parody' that is constructive or will make the network 'a better place', and your statements will be a little more valid.

As for having a message about the slsk.org site... there was one. It is in the same pinned topics as the message you quoted from in your last post, and it has been there for months. It's gone on to appear on Slyck, as well... so the warning was certainly made. I write them after discussing matters with them... it has kind of become part of my "job description", in a sense. Simply put, as one of the four network administrators for the program (the other being our sysop, Francois), it's part of what I do. I have more time to put into writing the notices, and do take some pride in doing my part. The bottom line is that my words are just as valid as theirs on those issues. I wouldn't speak 'on behalf of Nir and Rosalind Arbel' otherwise. As for how it happened, the site was squatted... yes, some people out there make their living out of sitting over domains on a day to day basis. They watch them like hawks, waiting for something to go down or for a break in the flow of things, and they swoop in for the kill. It's a very common practice, especially employed by those in the spam, pornography industries (a sex dialer, naturally, falling into both).

I would challenge anyone to point out what other clients / networks have had a direct interaction with their users in regards to the building of the software. It's a difference Soulseek has always had. Once upon a time, that system worked well, and the criticism was constructive criticism. That stopped, becoming whining and complaining. It has gone so far, on more than one occasion, to users sending extremely vicious hatemail when the server goes down. One might be able to say they'd be a tough nut to crack, and would be indifferent to it, but I'd like to see it to believe it. There's a difference providing constructive criticism and simply name calling / slandering / accusing, etc... Stating that Nir goes out to buy whores doesn't make the network a better place, and I'd really like to be shown how it may, if I am missing something.

I think that pretty much covers each point I wished to go over. As a final thought, though: to go back to the whole statement of 'putting the users at risk'... how would that be putting them at risk? Kazaa installs spyware which is just as, if not more intrusive, as does LimeWire. Several Gnutella clients go ahead and do it, as well. In these cases, though, they don't warn their users about it. In fact, they promote it, and attack anyone who acts to defeat the installation of these programs (Kazaa vs. K-Lite is a perfect example).

Users were told not to download from the site. Efforts were made by our sysop to regain control of the site, and we were told that 'it was impossible to do'. Being told such nonsense, and getting a taste of what could be expected from them in the future, I think anyone would have stopped bothering with relations with the host. An effort was made, and it was causing more grief than it was worth. Getting a new one ended up being a better option in the end to save sanity. An effort that would prove more helpful on the matter would be to forward all complaints regarding such to the ones who have the site now. It's not helping coming to Nir and Roz to complain about it. Cheers.

Sean / Proteus93 (Soulseek Administration)

[Proteus93]

Originally posted by harby
As per your challenge..the 'XS Client' does have strong user interaction between the developer Meth and the users..compared to soulseek..its a laughable comparison...100,000 soulseekers to 10 approximate XS users...not to knock XS because its a project I firmly believe in with as much passion and equal to yours as you feel for both SoulSeek and Rosalin or Nir.

It's something you believe in with people whom you most likely know and adore...meant respectfully as I adore the creator of XS..his most popular success is PeerGuardian which I'm sure you've heard of.

Actually, during the downtime of Soulseek in February last year (the Sapphirecut incident many are likely aware of), XS was where a number of us went (including Nir himself). Soulseek once was, and may still be, listed among the 'friends of the network' in the links. Soulseek used to be just like that... http://groups.yahoo.com/group/soulseek/. The old Yahoo page from a couple years ago gives an idea of how much interaction there was. That kind of criticism is very welcome... it always has been, and always will be. ;)

[eclectica]

First of all I have to say that Nir and Rosalind Arbel are two separate people. While ex-Napster employee Nir Arbel may be busy working on the server and making the program run okay, Rosalind's job seems to involve the financial part, taking care of the family income from priveleges that one can get by paying Soulseek five dollars a month.

Maybe I should try to understand Rosalind's position better. Soulseek is a business for her, so she has much more at stake than a mere hobbyist would. I naively assumed that her interest in the program was for a love of the music rather than for a profit motive. But after my messaging with her yesterday I came to realize she thinks of Soulseek as a business. In light of that I ought to understand her reaction to the Soulseek parody site (http://www.3-3-3.org/p2p/Soulseek/), and the lack of sense of humor she had towards it. People in business don't have much of a sense of humor.

[Ortali]

I suppose it’s time you all hear this from the source, rather than from the uninformed musings of eclectica. It’s pretty obvious that eclectica has not done his research on Soulseek. He claims to be an avid user of the system, yet does not even seem to know how or why Soulseek was created, my function on the system, nor Nir and my personal views on the system. If he would bother to look, he would see both Nir and Rosalind Arbel on the copyright for Soulseek. There is a reason for this; together, we are co-creators and designers of Soulseek. Nir does all of the programming, while I handle the more personal side of things, such as tech support and privileges…not just the “family finances” (could you GET more sexist?!) Eclectica is shocked that I consider Soulseek a “business”. Do you consider Gnutella or Kazaa to be businesses? I am sure you do...they pay taxes, and so do we. We have to..its the law. Just because we are based on the internet does not mean we won’t be sent to jail if the IRS realizes that we accept donations. However, there are some differences between a company like Kazaa and Soulseek; Kazaa has many employees…and they also house adware and spy ware on their systems. To date, there are 4 people regularly working on Soulseek; Nir, myself, Proteus93, and arzenik, our sysadmin. Despite the fact that we daily have offers from businesses wishing to give us money in exchange for adspace, we have held very firm about keeping Soulseek ad free and spy ware free. The only way that we can offset costs is to ask for donations, and even though it is called a “donation”, you better believe that people are pissed if their privileges are not working as they think they should. I deal with the users on Soulseek every single day. I answer their emails and their PMs...Soulseek is a full time job. So sue me if I think of the system as a business in addition to a filesharing community. I have no idea why that is a bad thing. Nir and I both put ourselves at risk for obvious reasons because we strongly believe in the community of soul seek. Obviously there are people that are critical...there are numerous things to be critical of, some of which we have control over, and some of which we don't. However, the “parody" site which eclectica so nobly champions is not critical, it’s pure fallacy. My main problem with this site is the fact that it has been made to look like Nir and I wrote the text. I have no problem with it if our names were taken off of the site, but as Proteus has pointed out, the mere fact that it shows matis_keynell as its creator proves it has nothing but malicious intent. It even links to our site, which is even more confusing for those believing in its legitimacy. There are many, many criticisms of the system that Nir and I tolerate, but I will NOT tolerate blatant lies. I truly believe that if eclectica created something that he has fully invested in, he might have a hard time if someone was trying to spread lies about him, as well. His comments about "not being surprised if they sold the domain to make money" shows clearly that he is uninformed, and takes pleasure in staying that way.
If he had done any research or knew what he was talking about, he would have noticed the numerous posts all over the internet about what happened with our domain. We struggled in vain to regain it after getting screwed by Gandi...we even signed up for an auction when the site became available. But the scheduled auction never happened, and the next thing we knew there was a dailer on our old site. We contacted the domain providers both in the US and in Austria, but have yet to hear anything in our favor.
Now anyone that has worked for an internet-based business knows, it does not matter how as many times you explain, post, coddle, or shake users; there will always be some people who just don't get it and fall through the cracks. So next time, before you decide to call me a bully who “fucks up their users” (behind my back when you could have said it to my face, etc) make sure you have some proof to back up your allegations. You can laugh as much as you want at that site....as I said before, it’s not your ass on the line.

[Ortali]

thank you , you are very sweet. :)

[Criminal_Sniper]

id bother reading it but no spaces or paragraphs?
i got half way and though fuck this
but i gotta say i love soulseek
and harby u will find almost anything on there now
i have death, hardcore, heavy stuff, hard rock, everything inbetween, rap, reggae, and more
ive found a lot there and BT

[assorted]

i think it was quite courteous of soulseeks to wander over to this tiny dark corner of the internet and answer your complaints (that is, if this isn't eclectica being his usual freakish self and pretending he's her).

regardless, i found the parody site funny. it's not really libel, as it seems obvious to me that the site is just fucking around and not based in any way in fact. saying that the soulseek guy spends the $5 proceeds on whores, for example, is obviously comical and not meant to mislead people. really, the people behind soulseek should be happy that their service is popular enough to even warrant someone taking the time to make a site making fun of them.

the site's attackers also seem to be saying that it is not valid criticism. well, underneath the humor there is a valid criticism. the point (made through humor) seems to be that someone who donates money monthly to soulseek (or all at once) might feel ripped off due to the unstable nature of the program and service.

personally, i don't agree with that criticism, but it IS a valid criticism (i.e: it's not coming from mars, i can understand the point of view that would make that arguement while not agreeing with it).

any donation i would make to soulseek would be similar to any donation i would make to audiogalaxy in its heyday: it would be for the service i enjoyed so far, not for any expectation of future service. the little perks offered for donating are very cool, however that would in no way be the reason i would be donating, nor should it be the reason anyone else donates.

people should donate because it is a really cool service and they want to reward the people who put the time and effort into creating and maintaining this service for their past (and hopefully) future efforts. i've been using soulseek for at least a year if not more and am very, very happy with it.

however, having said all that, the site in question is humorous, and as such is not slanderous or libelous. it's underlying point, that soulseeks founders do not appear to reinvest said donations into their own backend, is a point made based on that users perception of service in reward for his 5 dollars. while i think that point is very mistaken, it is grounded in reality and not out of left field, and therefore also not slanderous or libelous.

of course, IMHO, hehe.

[Ortali]

you might want to know that soulseek is run on one server, a pretty amazing feat, considering that we just hit a new record of 123,500 users at once. we actually invest A LOT of time AND money into our backend. good luck with that !

[eclectica]

Originally posted by Ortali
soulseek is run on one server, a pretty amazing feat, considering that we just hit a new record of 123,500 users at once. we actually invest A LOT of time AND money into our backend.
Rosalind, in this (http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2747) Slyck interview Nir stated that one of the reasons the Soulseek network is not bigger is that you want to keep the payment system working properly, and with many servers it won't work well. Here is the quote:
"the way we make money pretty much depends on there just being one server if the privileges we give in return for donations are to mean anything."
It seems the growth of Soulseek is being limited by this pay system of yours. Yet the pay system was supposed to help Soulseek rather than hinder it. I think centralization is ideal, but I am concerned that you have limited further growth of Soulseek because you want to keep everything on one server. The best thing would be to get more servers and then link them all together, so that it continues to be one large community with growth potential.

I understand that you have expenses and that's why the pay system was set up. But I would rather see you solicit donations from the Soulseek community without giving any queueing priveleges in return. You would perhaps get fewer donations, but at least when people donate it will be because they did it for the love of the community rather than for priority in queues. You take away from the pleasure of giving when you make it a tit-for-tat (quid pro quo) exchange. The one time I gave Soulseek $5, I did it for the love of the community rather than for priority in my downloading.

Ideally a p2p community would be a meritocracy, rather than a plutocracy as you have. The best thing people can do is leave their computers on by uploading and sharing their files. The eMule (http://emule-project.net/) program has a credit system that rewards people who upload many files.

You should expect p2p filesharing to be a money-losing venture. We love the music and it gives us pleasure to share with our online friends. That is the reward we should get out of being part of a p2p filesharing community.

[Criminal_Sniper]

yup yup i agree
thats how real FILE SHARING is run
multi servers is very possible
someday somewill hack it
if they go all pay it would be terrible but i cant imagine that at this point

[assorted]

Originally posted by eclectica
It seems the growth of Soulseek is being limited by this pay system of yours. Yet the pay system was supposed to help Soulseek rather than hinder it. I think centralization is ideal, but I am concerned that you have limited further growth of Soulseek because you want to keep everything on one server. The best thing would be to get more servers and then link them all together, so that it continues to be one large community with growth potential.


but at the same time, the growth of soulseek would probably kill soulseek by giving it too much attention. soulseek, as i'm sure you are aware, is set to die at any moment the second the riaa chooses to set their sights on them. their only real hope at staying around is, amusingly enough, to not grow.

i don't know how happy i would be if soulseek moved to decentralization. i'm quite happy the way it is, warts and all.

[eclectica]

Here is Rosalind Arbel's account of how the slsk.org domain was lost by Soulseek. It was posted 2004-02-08 in this thread (http://slskboard.savagenews.com/index.php?showtopic=9477).

just to clear up all of this "they sold their domain" crap...
we did NOT sell our domain.
we paid 10 years in advance.
the domain company, named gandi, did not bill us this entire amount at once...we accidentally overlooked this . meanwhile, our bank had us change our card number, because we were lumped with a large group of people who's credit card numbers had been stolen by a hacker (i am sure you heard about this...it was big news at the time). anyways, the changing of our card number was beyond our control. meanwhile, gandi tried charging our card again, and of course, it was declined. when finally they shut down our site "temporarily", we fought with them to reinstate it, and they refused, saying it was impossible. arzenik, our sysadmin, bickered back and forth with them for a week before they informed us that they would be releasing the site...effectively putting it up for grabs on the internet.
we found that that pool.com grabbed it the second it was released.
pool.com said that the domain would be sold through an online auction.
we signed up for the auction, which was going to happen within 24 hours. 24 hours came and went. we went to check up on the domain via the pool.com website, and it said that it had been taken off the auction list...to be put up again next year!
we couldn't believe it!
a week later, Proetus93 informed us that there was a fake soulseek site...complete with the exact same text, fake bird, etc, that was a dailer site. tricking people into d/ling the "latest version". needless to say we were VERY pissed...and confused, trying to firgure out how these people got a hold of the domain without geting it via the auction.
arzenik sent letters to both austria and germany, trying to get the site shut down. since dialers considered a legal business practice in germany, the ISP ignored our request there. we moved onto austria, where it appears the owners of the site reside. we have yet to hear anything back regarding this.
YOU decide who is at fault. but please, no more rumors about us selling our site.
thanks

[assorted]

That's a little strange. specifically, this part is strange:

meanwhile, gandi tried charging our card again, and of course, it was declined. when finally they shut down our site "temporarily", we fought with them to reinstate it, and they refused, saying it was impossible. arzenik, our sysadmin, bickered back and forth with them for a week before they informed us that they would be releasing the site...effectively putting it up for grabs on the internet.

I mean why would they not accept payment for a week?

[eclectica]

I find it strange that they paid ten years in advance and yet they were billed annually. It would be like buying a six-pack from the store and coming home with only one beer, and saying, I bought a six-pack, but I'm going to take six separate trips to the store to buy each one.
:beer:
:beer: :beer:
:beer: :beer: :beer:

[eclectica]

I subscribed to a service at whois.sc (http://www.whois.sc/) in which you can view the whois history of a domain name as it has changed throughout time. Here are the dates in which I can check the whois information for slsk.org:

2004-02-11
2004-02-10
2004-01-27
2004-01-18
2003-11-27
2003-09-17
2003-09-15
2003-09-10
2003-09-09
2003-09-08
2003-09-07
2003-09-06
2003-09-05
2003-09-04
2003-09-03
2003-09-02
2003-09-01
2003-07-18
2003-07-16
2003-06-25
2003-06-01
2003-05-18
2003-03-13
2003-02-11
2002-12-31
Displaying 25 records

Here are five key ones:

2003-07-18

Domain ID:D89020211-LROR
Domain Name:SLSK.ORG
Created On:04-Aug-2002 00:05:31 UTC
Last Updated On:01-Apr-2003 20:44:46 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Aug-2003 00:05:31 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R42-LROR
Status:OK
Registrant ID:42-C
Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Registrant City:N/A
Registrant Postal Code:N/A
Registrant Country:CA
Registrant Email:not@available.org
Admin ID:42-C
Admin Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Admin Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Admin Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Admin City:N/A
Admin Postal Code:N/A
Admin Country:CA
Admin Email: not@available.org
Billing ID:42-C
Billing Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Billing Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Billing Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Billing City:N/A
Billing Postal Code:N/A
Billing Country:CA
Billing Email:not@available.org
Tech ID:42-C
Tech Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Tech Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Tech Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Tech City:N/A
Tech Postal Code:N/A
Tech Country:CA
Tech Email:not@available.org
Name Server:NS6.GANDI.NET
Name Server:NS.SLSK.ORG

2003-09-01

Domain ID:D89020211-LROR
Domain Name:SLSK.ORG
Created On:04-Aug-2002 00:05:31 UTC
Last Updated On:04-Aug-2003 02:00:55 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004 00:05:31 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R42-LROR
Status:OK
Registrant ID:42-C
Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Registrant City:N/A
Registrant Postal Code:N/A
Registrant Country:CA
Registrant Email:not@available.org
Admin ID:42-C
Admin Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Admin Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Admin Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Admin City:N/A
Admin Postal Code:N/A
Admin Country:CA
Admin Email:not@available.org
Billing ID:42-C
Billing Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Billing Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Billing Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Billing City:N/A
Billing Postal Code:N/A
Billing Country:CA
Billing Email:not@available.org
Tech ID:42-C
Tech Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Tech Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Tech Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Tech City:N/A
Tech Postal Code:N/A
Tech Country:CA
Tech Email:not@available.org
Name Server:NS6.GANDI.NET
Name Server:NS.SLSK.ORG

2003-09-02

Domain ID:D89020211-LROR
Domain Name:SLSK.ORG
Created On:04-Aug-2002 00:05:31 UTC
Last Updated On:02-Sep-2003 03:15:47 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004 00:05:31 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R42-LROR
Status:INACTIVE
Status:PENDING DELETE
Registrant ID:42-C
Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Registrant City:N/A
Registrant Postal Code:N/A
Registrant Country:CA
Registrant Email:not@available.org
Admin ID:42-C
Admin Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Admin Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Admin Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Admin City:N/A
Admin Postal Code:N/A
Admin Country:CA
Admin Email:not@available.org
Billing ID:42-C
Billing Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Billing Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Billing Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Billing City:N/A
Billing Postal Code:N/A
Billing Country:CA
Billing Email:not@available.org
Tech ID:42-C
Tech Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Tech Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Tech Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Tech City:N/A
Tech Postal Code:N/A
Tech Country:CA
Tech Email:not@available.org

2003-09-17

Domain ID:D89020211-LROR
Domain Name:SLSK.ORG
Created On:04-Aug-2002 00:05:31 UTC
Last Updated On:02-Sep-2003 03:15:47 UTC
Expiration Date:04-Aug-2004 00:05:31 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R42-LROR
Status:INACTIVE
Status:PENDING DELETE
Registrant ID:42-C
Registrant Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Registrant Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Registrant Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Registrant City:N/A
Registrant Postal Code:N/A
Registrant Country:CA
Registrant Email:not@available.org
Admin ID:42-C
Admin Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Admin Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Admin Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Admin City:N/A
Admin Postal Code:N/A
Admin Country:CA
Admin Email:not@available.org
Billing ID:42-C
Billing Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Billing Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Billing Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Billing City:N/A
Billing Postal Code:N/A
Billing Country:CA
Billing Email:not@available.org
Tech ID:42-C
Tech Name:SEE SPONSORING REGISTRAR
Tech Street1:Whois Server:whois.gandi.net
Tech Street2:Referral URL:www.gandi.net
Tech City:N/A
Tech Postal Code:N/A
Tech Country:CA
Tech Email:not@available.org

2003-11-27

Domain ID:D101545785-LROR
Domain Name:SLSK.ORG
Created On:07-Oct-2003 14:35:43 UTC
Last Updated On:31-Oct-2003 06:58:00 UTC
Expiration Date:07-Oct-2004 14:35:43 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:R57-LROR
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:N-R142331
Registrant Name:DAY Networks
Registrant Organization:DAY Networks
Registrant Street1:Kratochwlestrasse 12/1/82
Registrant City:Vienna
Registrant State/Province:--
Registrant Postal Code:A1220
Registrant Country:AT
Registrant Phone:+43.43
Registrant FAX:+43.4317743069
Registrant Email:p2p@day.biz
Admin ID:N-139744
Admin Name:DAY Networks
Admin Organization:DAY Networks
Admin Street1:Kratochwlestrasse 12/1/82
Admin City:Vienna
Admin State/Province:--
Admin Postal Code:A1220
Admin Country:AT
Admin Phone:+43.43
Admin Email:n-139744zfvt@usersa5.namescout.com
Billing ID:N-139744
Billing Name:DAY Networks
Billing Organization:DAY Networks
Billing Street1:Kratochwlestrasse 12/1/82
Billing City:Vienna
Billing State/Province:--
Billing Postal Code:A1220
Billing Country:AT
Billing Phone:+43.43
Billing Email:n-139744zfvt@usersa5.namescout.com
Tech ID:N-139744
Tech Name:DAY Networks
Tech Organization:DAY Networks
Tech Street1:Kratochwlestrasse 12/1/82
Tech City:Vienna
Tech State/Province:--
Tech Postal Code:A1220
Tech Country:AT
Tech Phone:+43.43
Tech Email:n-139744zfvt@usersa5.namescout.com
Name Server:NS1.DOMAINNAME.AT
Name Server:NS2.DOMAINNAME.AT

It appears the domain was initially registered 2002-08-04 and set to expire 2003-08-04. On 2003-08-04 it was renewed for one more year, and set to expire 2004-08-04. On 2003-09-02 the nameservers changed and the domain was set to be deleted. Then on 2003-10-07 the information of the nameservers was set up for the new owner of the domain.

[eclectica]

From Gandi FAQ are these two sections:
http://www.gandi.net/support/SelfService/Gandi.php?groupid=179&locale=en_GB
http://www.gandi.net/support/SelfService/Gandi.php?groupid=182&locale=en_GB

It looks like they should have received 3 or 4 e-mail notifications that their domain name was going to expire. Perhaps the e-mail on file wasn't valid.

Here's what I think happened: Soulseek didn't renew their domain name by 2003-08-04 as they were supposed to. At that point the registrar Gandi.net renewed the domain name and put them on "hold" status until 2003-09-02. On 2003-09-02 they no longer held it for Soulseek, and put out a delete order, putting the domain name on "pending delete" status, which takes another month before it is handed over to the public. The public got a hold of it on 2003-10-07.

[assorted]

Even you of the evil conspiracy, eclectica, admits that there is no evil doing behind this issue. If there is any wrong it is simply gazdet-like incompetence.

With that in mind, why are you pursing this issue?

[eclectica]

They made a mistake. They didn't pay ten years in advance as Rosalind stated, but actually one year. I figure either their contact e-mail was wrong or their credit card wasn't working, or both. I haven't heard Soulseek take responsibility and admit that it was their oversight which caused the domain name to lapse. The domain was not stolen from them. They are not victims. And this is not the first time it has happened. They also lost their former domain name soulseek.org in the past.

The best thing we can all do is laugh and move on when things like this happen. Soulseek ought to be glad that people are getting a good laugh out of it by making humorous parody sites. It's a better reaction than getting pissed off for being fooled into installing the Mainpean Stardialer. While some have said that people stupid enough to install the dialer program deserve it, I think that by the same line of thinking, that people stupid enough to let their domain name lapse deserve it too.

Let us laugh at our mistakes, for not only is criticism healthy in p2p, but so is humor as well. The original (http://soulseeks.netfirms.com/) Soulseek parody site is no longer working, so I have mirrored it here (http://www.3-3-3.org/p2p/Soulseek/).

[Ortali]

Originally posted by assorted
Even you of the evil conspiracy, eclectica, admits that there is no evil doing behind this issue. If there is any wrong it is simply gazdet-like incompetence.

With that in mind, why are you pursing this issue?


IN deed.
we DID pay for ten years in advance, and we proved it to them by sending them our orginal statement, which they chose to ignore.
god knows what their problem is; they are a french company that we used upon the insistence of our sysadmin. and yes, they tried to contact us via an email address that was invalid at the time that they contacted us. however, when we tried to pay them again, they refused, as the story says.
why ARE you pushing this issue?
jeez, give it a rest and go pick on someone else's bad luck, will ya?

[Proteus93]

I'm kind of curious as to why you had a full cache, images and all sitting on your machine. Leads one to think that you've had it all along. Why is that?

[velocity]

Originally posted by eclectica Let us laugh at our mistakes, for not only is criticism healthy in p2p, but so is humor as well. The original (http://soulseeks.netfirms.com/) Soulseek parody site is no longer working, so I have mirrored it here (http://www.napsterite.org/Soulseek/). [/B]

why would you want to do that , huh ?
is it right to keep that innocent guy's email address there (which can attract more spam) if you know he's not the creator of that site ?

WTF is with you eclectica ?
either you do this on purpose with full knowledge of the fact it isn't right or you're suffering of lack of comprehension at all

[assorted]

Originally posted by velocity
why would you want to do that , huh ?
is it right to keep that innocent guy's email address there (which can attract more spam) if you know he's not the creator of that site ?

WTF is with you eclectica ?
either you do this on purpose with full knowledge of the fact it isn't right or you're suffering of lack of comprehension at all

Um, I should fill you in at this point that eclectica is kind of a troll. He enjoys jumping on an issue like a pit bull, then locking down and refusing to let go until way, way past the point where common sense should dictate he should. I know this behaviour from other forums so you've been properly warned that eclectica has now appeared to jump on Soulseek as such. You could almost consider it a compliment as it shows that eclectica likes and uses your service.

However, at this point in the discussion, your returning here to discuss it with him or try to reason with him is only going to make him clamp down harder, I bet. It was probably your attention in the first place that made him "clamp down" in the first place.

My advice, if you want to get rid of a troll, ignore him. But I don't suggest taking punitive action against him on Soulseek, the past has shown that actions like that only make him more determined. :coward:

[eclectica]

I backed up that site and saved it to my hard drive using an archiving program called IntelliTamper (http://intellitamper.com/). I'm glad I did so because otherwise the site would be lost. I took out the netfirms.com advertisements in the version that I mirrored. I also decided just now to remove Matis Keynell's e-mail address from the page.

[Ortali]

uhm...i really don't remember seeing you there in my living room when all this was going down.
do you have special powers?
maybe we can use them to fight world hunger or something useful along those lines.

[velocity]

Originally posted by eclectica
I backed up that site and saved it to my hard drive using an archiving program called IntelliTamper (http://intellitamper.com/). I'm glad I did so because otherwise the site would be lost. I took out the netfirms.com advertisements in the version that I mirrored. I also decided just now to remove Matis Keynell's e-mail address from the page.

yeah , thanks for keeping this site alive
it has a blessing effect on everything

btw. maybe i'm blind but it still says Created by Matis Keynell Copyright 2003

[Ortali]

apparently it was closed because matis made a complaint.
mystery solved!

[anxietyculture.com]

Um, I should fill you in at this point that eclectica is kind of a troll. He enjoys jumping on an issue like a pit bull, then locking down and refusing to let go until way, way past the point where common sense should dictate he should. I know this behaviour from other forums so you've been properly warned that eclectica has now appeared to jump on Soulseek as such.

I hope such idiotic postings (example quoted above) don't have any effect on anyone else. I just laugh & see someone trying to do my thinking for me. If someone wishes to conclude that another user is a 'troll', then let them do that for themselves.

Oh, I think the problem the slsk admin have is that there are not many of them, & yet their network is pretty big. They tend (in my experience) to go on 'number of complaints', rather than considering in-depth the nature of those complaints. Sometimes, legitimate activity elicits complaints (indeed - if you are trying to have a significant effect on public thinking, then you are probably doing something wrong if at least some people DON'T complain). As such, you might find that you get banned just because you've called a cunt a cunt in enough cases.

[anxietyculture.com]

Thank-you universe for having someone in it who is confident & thorough enough to keep pushing, even when voices emerge encouraging him to believe the cause is lost! The cause in not lost.

I thought that I was tenacious, then I encountered eclectica. :worship:

It is important that someone keep an eye on private p2p networks, & this would seem particularly applicable to soulseek, given both what I have read, & my own experience of admins who ban for personal rather than legal or security reasons.

I'm very pleased to see such thorough record keeping.

eclectica may like to know that a few people are now spending some money to monitor such networks & inform the media if any of them start being run like bloated multi-national mega-corporations, which is one possible outcome of growing very very big

slsk isn't there yet, but it's growing not shrinking, & all the while it's a private network run by people with private interests who are accountable only to themselves in respect of most of their decisions

when over a million people exchange data via a privately controlled network, a lot of trust is being placed in a very small number of people

eclectica should be made a saint
:priest:

[eclectica]

Luther Blissett, who is registered as anxietyculture.com on this forum, used to have a chat room on Soulseek known as "Gilbert's Fridge", but was banned recently from Soulseek. You can see some information about Gilbert's Fridge here (http://www.potheadsociety.com/gilbertsfridge_meta _letter.php). There is a recent forum topic on the subject of the banning here (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&groupID=100008254&page=0&EntryID=7717898&CategoryID=0&get=1&adTopicId=21). On page 5 of that forum topic there is a posting by someone who claims to be Sean / Proteus93 of the Soulseek administration. Here is an excerpt I would like to quote:

You constantly go on about 'freedom of speech', 'freedom of assembly', 'freedom of whatever'. Connecting to this network is NOT a right. It is a PRIVILEGE. That is written in the rule set / EULA. It is YOUR responsibility to read that... ignorance of such is not an excuse, and in the real world, it doesn't hold up in a court of law, either. You may also notice that it very clearly states the following:

>Your administrators are nir, OrtaliGoddessOfPrivileges, Proteus93, arsenic_, and sierracat. Administrators can kill any connections without prior notice for any reason.

and

>Server or chatroom abuse will result in your connection being closed and your ISP notified. This may result in a possible account termination.

Know that circumventing security measures is server abuse, and any network will tell you the same thing. Technically, such actions can be referred to as hacking, without being inaccurate. We are fully aware that you have been attempting to reconnect, and that you have been actively circumventing the bans put in place. That is further server abuse, and will most certainly earn a notice to each of service providers you have been using. This does include your 'wi-fi' hotspots, so you cause legal issues for others by your own self-serving actions.

Soulseek is a p2p client that has as its programmer Nir Arbel, who was a former employee of the original Napster. Unlike most newer p2p applications, Soulseek is centralized and controlled by its owners. It also has a donation system of five dollars a month that goes to the owners, in order for one to receive priority in the queue when downloading from others.

Because of the influence from the RIAA and other forces of greed, filesharing programs and networks have evolved to be more decentralized, open source, and democratic; making Soulseek somewhat of a dinosaur in that regard. Who knows how long Soulseek will continue to operate before shutting down. It may be something as simple as one threatening letter from the RIAA that could do it. I am glad when commercialized filesharing companies such as Sharman Networks, the owner of KaZaA, fade away or cease their operations. And I think it was good that WinMX recently shut down, because it was a closed source p2p application that had stopped being developed. Knowing that there are better applications out there, I see the deaths of these applications as good for filesharing from a Darwinian perspective, because the lot of the filesharing community is improved by the elimination of its more corrupt elements. By the way, when I refer to both KaZaA and WinMX as corrupt, I realize that there are varying degrees of corruption, with WinMX being only mildly corrupt as compared to KaZaA. Read the Slyck thread The Benefits of Mass Extinction (http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14458) to see a similar topic discussed.

I would rate the owners of Soulseek as being moderately corrupt. Because there is no adware, spyware, or DRM in the Soulseek program, that is to their credit. But they seem to have a problem of attitude, with an inability to handle criticism and an eagerness to ban. I might have never known this if I hadn't come across the Soulseek parody site that someone posted a link to in the Slyck forum, which I was able to copy here (http://www.3-3-3.org/p2p/Soulseek/). I thought it was pretty funny and posted the link to it in the old Soulseek forum. What I got after that over several days, were many instant messages from Rosalind Arbel while using the Soulseek client, demanding answers about the Soulseek parody site. It was as if she was deeply offended and troubled by it. The unprofessional obsessiveness of her messaging eventually caused me to stop using Soulseek as a p2p application, because I felt that it was "her" network that I was not welcome to use, and not a public network. Ironically the same obsessiveness that Luther Blissett has been accused of when banned from Soulseek, I actually experienced myself from Rosalind Arbel.

Critics of Soulseek that include myself and Luther Blissett, have been viewed by the Soulseek owners as malicious troublemakers who want to destroy their network. But in fact they should be thanking their critics who care enough to bother criticizing them.

Whenever someone criticizes site owners on the internet, they often will try to depict such criticism as an attack on their whole community. Such a depiction is what politicians who are scoundrels have been doing for a long time, when they wrap themselves in the flag and surround themselves with patriotism, and proclaim that any attack or criticism of them is an attack of the whole country.

Along with Soulseek, another p2p site that is run by corrupt owners is the Zeropaid forum (http://www.zeropaid.com/bbs/). All these sites have continued to operate despite the corruption of their owners, because the users still hold the place together and provide something worthwhile. Soulseek and Zeropaid have survived not because of their owners, but rather despite their owners. Unfortunately since there is no chance of democratic reform on internet sites, the only hope to seeing the end of the corruption that occurs on a particular site is for its total destruction.

When I left Soulseek I didn't have trouble finding a filesharing application to replace it, because I had only a minimal involvement in the community by participating in the forum a little, but not getting into the chat. As a Boards of Canada fan I had some meaningful interactions in the Soulseek forum that helped me discover new music that was similar to Boards of Canada. But I think someone like Luther Blissett will have more difficulty than I did in moving on to another filesharing application and community, because he was more involved on the community level than I was. I'm not familiar with what filesharing applications have good chat features and what would be a good replacement for Luther Blissett. But after a little searching I found that Ares (http://www.aresgalaxy.org) gives a user the ability to create chat rooms, and has a lot of music on its network.

This issue brings to light the bittersweet social effects that the internet has on people. The internet allows for people with unique interests to find each other, and for communities to exist that normally wouldn't have due to geographical separation. But the participation in these communities by a member, as well as the very existence of the community, is particularly fragile and can easily be destroyed based on the whims and personalities of the site owners and admins.

[anxietyculture.com]

in short, I (as Luther Blissett) got trolled by a girl (Saskia) who took exception at me entering "her" room without an invite

as a friend of the admin (on their myspace page) she "had a word" & got me banned

the smear campaign from the admin & hang-arounds might have made people think it was all in my head, but two weeks later the slsk server starts spamming everyone who connects with a "chance to have thier song released as part of a competition blah blah" (the name of the record label on which the lucky winner will have thier tune released..? "Saskia")
:cumshot:

a previous dispute led to this by the way...

http://www.potheadsociety.com/gilbertsfridge_meta%20_letter.php

:)