prison torture in Iraq

[eclectica]

American officials have expressed shock and outrage at the revealing of photos of abuse of prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison. Yet this is not really any sincere remorse on their part so much as an attempt of damage control. The photos enraged other people in the World and it might have even enraged some good Americans.

At first when the photos were released they didn't want the media to release the photos for fear of inflaming Arabs. Even now they are not releasing all of the material and are keeping it classified. Material is supposed to be classified only for the purposes of national security. In this case though the classification of the material is being done to prevent embarassment. The United States is continuing to show that it is not regretful of the prisoner abuse by way of its actions and its inability to come clean over what happened.

Prior to the release of the photos, the International Red Cross had been complaining for several months to different government agencies and members about prisoner abuse, but only when the photos were made public did the US government display public concern. This means that Americans, as represented by their government, can't be trusted and have no credibility. They do not follow any international rules, they have no conscience, and believe that they are above the law.

Collectively everybody in the democracy bears some guilt for the actions of the American government. Are you proud to be American? Right now the country is cashing in on whatever greatness it had in the past but is failing in the present to do the right thing. People ought to get the notion out of their heads that America is a leader of the free World. It's time to move on past the miserable failure that the United States has become.

The responsibility of the prisoner abuses doesn't just fall on a few bad soldiers or on Donald Rumsfeld. If we are to go up the chain of command then we ought to stop at the commander-in-chief president Bush rather than stop conveniently short at the secretary of Defense. The whole debate about whether Rumsfeld should be fired or not is convenient for the Bush administration, because either way he is depicted as the person who is mainly responsible.

If the American government were really serious rather than having a feigned indignation towards the prisoner abuse, then it would widen the inquiry to look at whether prisoners are also abused in other places like Afghanistan and Guantanamo Bay in Cuba, as well as examine other atrocities it has committed.

[eclectica]

The military fosters a culture of abuse. There are a good number of sadistic people who are barely kept in line by oversight or rules. Marines tend to be the craziest of the lot, and a lot of them are dangerous psychopaths living in society after they leave the military.

It is not that the government is doing anything wrong in training such people. Rather it is the case that such people are attracted to the particular job. People who are murderers may have a role in defending a country and look heroic, but after they leave the military the killing aggressive nature in them stays and they become problematic members of a civilian society.

Given the fact that there is little regard for Iraqis and Muslims in the American government, and the soldiers were encouraged to soften up the detainees, and there was no oversight, then this is what lead to the abuse of the prisoners in Iraq. It wasn't because of a few bad apples that the abuse happened, but rather a broad failure in the culture of the US government and a willful turning of a blind eye towards the abuse of America's enemies.

[eclectica]

I recall some point last week waking up and feeling a little sad, because I lost the esteem for the United States as a great country and a defender of freedom. These torture cases in Iraq along with detentions in Guantanamo Bay and the detention of immigrants in the United States after 9-11, gave me a sickened feeling. It's a sad thing when you realize that you no longer love the country you live in.

[eclectica]

I dowloaded the Nicholas Berg on eMule. I found the quality to be poor but I couldn't find anything better. There was a 112 MB sized file I downloaded that turned out not to work. I read on a few different sites that the original filename was iraq2vediow.zip. I found such a file on the ED2K network with a file size of 5,482,721 bytes and a play length of 5:37, and ED2K link of ed2k://|file|iraq2vediow.zip|5482721|8D683485EBACF4D7140F3CCFEB007A59|/. Unzipping the file reveals a file inside, with the name iraq2vediom.wmv with a file size of 5,566,007 bytes, and an ED2K link of ed2k://|file|iraq2vediom.wmv|5566007|9D6387A040298B8F2B16AB7F6BBD336D|/. It has a date and time of 2004-05-11 19:08. Iraq is GMT +4 at this time of the year. Assuming that it is the original file and created in Iraq, then it was created on 11:08 EDT New York Time and 08:08 PDT California time.

The most popular version of the file on the ED2K network is named Nicholas Nick Berg - Muntada al-Ansar - Nick Berg Musab al-Zarqawi.wmv and it also has a file size of 5,566,007 bytes but an ED2K link of ed2k://|file|Nicholas.Nick.Berg.-.Muntada.al-Ansar.-.Nick.Berg.Musab.al-Zarqawi.wmv|5566007|9B8849D76832BD8ED2A8EF7E568B2D9D|/. Though it has the same file size there is one difference between it and iraq2vediom.wmv. This one has a clip name of:
Fix America first and change the policy of thinking to be able to rule the whole world in an american way of life! America is slowly standing more and more alone.
You see the clip name when you play the video in Windows Media Player.

It appears to me that the video is edited, based on the time that you see jumping around in the bottom right corner. I think that the screams you hear right when they appear to knife Nick Berg are not from him, and come before he gets knifed. At first I thought the audio and the video were off time from each other, but then I realized that it is someone else screaming. The initial knifing appears not to have impacted him either. Afterwards it cuts to a scene on the ground, and the time jumps. At this point I don't know if he is really getting killed in the scene or he is already dead and they are making it appear that they are killing him right there. There are a lot of doubts about the authenticity and events behind the video. See here:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/may2004/berg-m14.shtml

The text of the statement read in the video can be found at http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/news_service/middle_east_full_story.asp?service_id=1890. There is another version of the text to be found at
Northeast Intelligence Network (http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/) on their May 11th entry.

You can download the video here:
http://www.p2pjihad.org/eclectica/iraq2vediow.zip (5,482,721 bytes)

[nicobie]

Y haven't u dillweeds pitched a bitch about what happens here in our own stinking country...

If u think cops are good, and look out for u~~~ good luck, sweet meats.

[eclectica]

Bush is to give a speech at 00:00 GMT, or 100 minutes from now. The subject will concern Iraq.

[eclectica]

A complete collection of all the photos and videos ought to be available eventually, but for now they are holding some of it from being released to the public because they are labeling it as evidence for the investigations.

[Dollar_Girl]

It's more of National EMBARASSMENT and a real eye-opener for the american people as well as the rest of the world.

Do you think so? are you embarassed Tim? Were you embarassed when American's bombed residential villages in Kosovo, or burned children and families alive in Vietnam? or tortured people by pulling out their fingernails and pulling out their teeth? Or are u embarassed for the number of deformed children dumped in vietnamese orphanages because of the aftermath of Agent Orange, or the after math of two nukes dumped on Japan?

Are you ashamed Tim?

Nobody is REALLY shocked that American's are involved in more global humanitarian issues.

[dead_man]

i think it's part and parcel of being a 'warrior' in a way.

do u have more in common with someone because of your shared nationality, or because of a similar attitude towards life?

defending your nation is not the same thing as being a professional soldier, and whilst most soldiers abide by the rules of war there are many 'bad apples', and some of these bad apples get promoted to the point where they are the ones deciding the method of pursuing war.

Americans soldiers shot some of the German guards when they discovered Auschwitz because their only defence was that they were following orders. Possibly the reaction of a decent human desensitized by war, but in a way it made them as bad as those they were outraged at.

In the end most of us have more in common with a normal peace loving Iraqi than any coalition soldier serving in Iraq. It just so happens that at this moment in time the warmongers appear to have control of both factions.

I'm more embarassed that some scumbag faked torture pics of the british army to make money, and subsequently put many more people's lives at risk... disgusting.

[nicobie]

There is no excuse for getting caught.

Either be good or be right.


Robin Hood would say the same

[Dollar_Girl]

damn it's early...that's my disclaimer in case this doesn't make sense. To answer your question...i wasn't fully aware of all the 'atrocities' america has been guilty of comitting until reading some of I think it was criminal_sniper's post and your posts. Getting a unique or rather different viewpoint than my own as in a 'world perspective' as seen by people who are not american.

To answer you specifically No, I was not and am not embarassed by America bombing residential villages in Kosovo because I have no knowledge of that happening. Its one of those things that I just can't wrap my mind around..it hasn't sunk in to me yet that it has happened.

I'm not embarassed by Vietnam because to me that war is personal as I had a brother in it and I've believed the hype that my history books, and president's have spun for it that it was justified...however the reason for the war now alludes me. I don't even know why we fought them now. The only 'acceptable' excuse is this one: "to prevent the spread of Communism'

If you can give me a better understanding of why America fought in vietnam..please do.

Agent orange I am actually quite proud of and think it served our purposes well. I feel bad for the American's affected by it though who fought in that war. I do now feel shame and sorrow for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And I feel it tragic that this was done...i used to be proud of it when in school until recently when reading a post made by Criminal_Sniper regarding the Native American's it finally set in for me how bad America is in the world view and other countries and nation's perspective we are the enemy and for real good reasons..those bombs were dropped probably without realising the full impact of the devastation they would cause..they were also dropped Without remorse..and I am sorrowful for the loss of lives and the devasting impact that they had on Japan.

I'm glad we won the war though it was a great cost..tremendous cost to Japan and the world.

The aftermath of agent orange on the vietnamese people is still unreal to me so no I don't feel remorse for it..and yes I was shocked so your statement about noone being shocked is inaccurate..never blanketly assume anything..always leave some room for doubt and be careful ot absolutes and stalements like 'everone' or 'everybody'...'most' would have been more accurate.

and I'm sorry it took me so long to respond to you. I had initially overlooked your question. I didn't see them until just now.


What, you think villages in Kosovo were the only unjust bombings carried out by the Americans whe it comes to innocent by-standers?

You're not embarassed by vietnam, because the war was personal to u? tell that to the vietnamese ppl who had their kids burn to death, because the American's couldn't understand the concept of WAR, which, if abiding by international laws and rules, states that no innocent civilians or bystanders are to be intentionally harmed or killed. Nobody surrendering is to be killed in defence by the opposition.
As for believing the 'hype' of the war, try taking a look at the MAJORITY of the hype, which was firmly against. Go look non-curicular history books, or the American reaction to the war at the time of execution.

Do u know how the vietnamese sought out American troops in the jungle? They trained their dogs to kill ppl that smelt of soap... and only the Americans bathed in soap. Hey, the yanks dumped chemicals, the vietnamese had their dogs...

As for your pride in angent orange... dumping it on residential areas, to kill crops and starve ppl out of their villages was fantastic wasn't it! Meanwhile literally loads of mothers since the war, have been giving birth to severely deformed children, kids with heads twice the size, one arm shorter than the other, u know, the type of shit u'd see in ur star trek movie or something... that was a young mother who had her ability to have a healthy family, destroyed, because of something u're proud of - a chemical.

As for Japan and u growing up in a country where mass devestation is something a person rejoices in (hey, as long as it isn't YOUR city right? or YOUR country? who gives a shit about japan, as long asd New York is safe yeah?)... If the American's had given a shit about the devestation of the bomb, they would have dropped ONE not TWO. I find it unbelievable that a country made the decision to drop two nuclear bombs on another country... because the nuke is not temporary, it is not selective in who it kills, and the afthermath will stay around, long after those generations of ppl have passed on...wether naturally, or from radiation cancer.

[eclectica]

A lot of Americans think it was a good thing to do to drop the atomic bombs on Japan. They view it as the lesser of evils and a way to end the war quickly so that fewer lives were lost.

I see the dropping of the atomic bombs as America's desire to win by any means necessary.

[eclectica]

I do not wish to have THIS DISCUSSION with you.
miserable failure

[nicobie]

A lot of Americans think it was a good thing to do to drop the atomic bombs on Japan. They view it as the lesser of evils and a way to end the war quickly so that fewer lives were lost.

I see the dropping of the atomic bombs as America's desire to win by any means necessary.

U have a problem with that 'Lurkie?

[eclectica]

I don't believe it's okay to win at any cost. Sometimes you have to lose in order to win. By that I mean that you have to back down or accept defeat in order for peace or the greater good to occur.

It's not worth winning if it requires of you to become an immoral monster.

[eclectica]

:jihad:
There's a good chance within the next few days to have more bloody videos like the Nick Berg video released, but this time it will star the three Italian hostages who have been kidnapped since April 12. I expect it because of the timing of Bush visiting Rome on Friday June 4th. Recently they released a video of the 3 hostages as they were still alive. You can read about it here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1230799,00.html).

[Criminal_Sniper]

the thing about saying sorry and leaving it is that its hasnt stopped but is only getting more agressive
the things america once stood for it opresses now
whatever it fought was generally a disguise for profit and oil
just remember that the number one motivation of the white house is profits

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The United States has been particularly reluctant to sign treaties addressing the "laws of war". It has refused to sign The Declaration on the Prohibition of the Use of Thermo-Nuclear Weapons (1961); The Resolution on the Non-Use of Force in International Relations and Permanent Ban on the Use of Nuclear Weapons (1972); The Resolution on the Definition of Aggression (1974); Protocols Additional to the 1949 Geneva Convention (1977); and the Declaration on the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons(1989).1

Equally disturbing was the U.S. refusal to sign the Convention on Rights of the Child, introduced into the United Nations General assembly on November 20, 1989 and subsequently ratified by 191 countries.

The first use of atomic weapons against human beings occurred on August 6-9 1945, when the United States incinerated the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki during World War II, killing an estimated 110,000 Japanese citizens and injuring another 130,000. By 1950 another 230,000 died from injuries and radiation. Earlier in 1945 two fire bombing raids on Tokyo killed 140,000 citizens and injured a million more.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Korea 1943-1953
- Poor and devastated from Japanese occupation (since 1932).
- August 28, 1945 - All Regions have established local people's democratic committees.
- September 6, 1945 - Korean People's Republic Created.
- September 7, 1945 - Pacific Allies - General Douglas MacArthur, commander , formally issued a proclamation addressed "To the People of Korea." The proclamation announced that forces under his command "will today occupy the Territory of Korea south of 38 degrees north latitude."
- September 5th, 1945 - When the U.S. units started unloading - while black coated and armed Japanese police held back the crowds.
- the koreans at this point are being invaded and the japanese who were on the bad side on WWII are now being given some of the biggest aid packages n such (the big reason for japans success in the markets today)(and remains one of the biggest bases and intel positions today for the U.S. Military).
- May 10, 1948 - Syngman Rhee elected president (boycotted by most Koreans except the KDP and Rhee's own right-wing).
- Cheju massacre - 70,000 civilians on the southern island of Cheju are massacred by Rhee's paramilitary forces under oversight of U.S. officers.
- September 9, 1948 - In the north Democratic People's's Republic of Korea (DPRK) created in response - Kim II Sung as premier.
Rheee/U.S. forces hunt for commies in the south (most were actually just socialist though).
- August, 1949 - Cheju insurgency curshed.
opression.
more communistic links created.
much rebel activity.
thousands made to dig mass graves and were shot in the presence of U.S. army officers and soldiers (for not bowing to Rhee).
- Autumn, 1950 - U.S. Forces in retreat in the north.
- General Douglas MacArthur offered all air forces under his command to destroy "every means of communication, every installation, factory, city and village " from the Yalu River.
- saturation bombing of cities and villages including - napalm, incendiary, and fragmentation bombs.
- today 37000 U.S. troops in 100 installations across the south.
- untill 1994 all forces were under controll of the U.S.
- Now they are part of the Combined Forces Command (CFC) but still take over if there is a war declared bvy the U.S. military commander (other uses for military anyone?- cops can peacekeep).

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indonesia 1958-1965
- 350 years of colonialism over.
- President Sukarno wanted to start a independent socialist democracy with the help of the communist party (PKI)
- not tolerated by the U.S.
- under direction of the C.I.A. rebels in the indonesian army are trained and equipped for a coup.
- PKI ousted in 1965-66 brought the dictator Suharto to power.
- Teachers, Students, Civil servants and peasants systematically executed.
- In Central and East Java alone, 60,000 were killed.
- The most extensive killing were committed against suspected PKI supporters identified by U.S. intelligence.
- US Embassy reported on November 13,1965 that information sent to Suharto resulted in the killing of between 50 to 100 PKI members every night in East and Central Java. The Embassy admitted in an April 15, 1966 airgram to Washington: "We frankly do not know whether the real figure for the PKI killed is closer to 100,000 or 1,000,000."
- September 7, 1975 - Indonesian military invades East-Timor. (24hrs after high ranking officials of the U.S. had been on a visit
- 30,000 invade with Napalm, phosphorus bombs and chemical defoliants delivered from US supplied planes and helicopters.(killing tens of thousands of people)

hopefull this opens some eyes if not at least some minds
the united states needs war
just look at all the wars its started with the lack of justification almost as bad if not worse than iraq

coming soon......nam n iraq

[eclectica]

In general Americans are not nice people. They like to bully, dominate, and exploit others. I think it is because they are so selfish, they do not criticize their selves, and they have trouble empathizing with the suffering of others, and they are also isolated from the major suffering that they produce in the rest of the World.

Don't blame the president or the soldiers in Iraq. Blame the American people.

I haven't been around much in the World, but the friendliest group of people I've met were in Senegal. I wish I could trade out the rotten Americans in this country for those people from Senegal who are poor in their wealth but rich in their character.

[jcmd62]

I don't believe it's okay to win at any cost. Sometimes you have to lose in order to win. By that I mean that you have to back down or accept defeat in order for peace or the greater good to occur.
Japan did just this. They accepted defeat in order to have peace and do the greater good by saving the estimated 1,000,000 Japanese men, women and children that would have surely died in a long bloody invasion of the Japanese mainland.

It's not worth winning if it requires of you to become an immoral monster.
Once again your sense of hatred for your country, and its leadership, fogs your sense of reality.
I haven't been around much in the World, but the friendliest group of people I've met were in Senegal. I wish I could trade out the rotten Americans in this country for those people from Senegal who are poor in their wealth but rich in their character.
Here's your problem.....You not only haven't been around much in the world, but you obviously haven't been around much of your own damn country. There are thousands of people in this country who "are poor in their wealth but rich in their character." Yet somehow you had to go all the way to Senegal to find them. Agendas are made......You find what you seek......You find things where you want to find them. You WANT to find NOTHING but bad in this country, and thats exactly what you will find.

[slx]

Here's your problem.....You not only haven't been around much in the world, but you obviously haven't been around much of your own damn country. There are thousands of people in this country who "are poor in their wealth but rich in their character." Yet somehow you had to go all the way to Senegal to find them. Agendas are made......You find what you seek......You find things where you want to find them. You WANT to find NOTHING but bad in this country, and thats exactly what you will find.i respectfully disagree with you on that jimbob....unfortunately, we get most of our thoughts fed to us by the rupert murdochs of our country...only displaying negative, cause negative is what we all want to see when we pick up a paper or turn on the tube....it sells

we're such a lazy society, we assume the news is the gospel and unfortunately live our lives in fear of getting to know our crazy, deranged neighbors

e sited a good example of the way "we" are....on vacation, relaxed and unknowing, he did see the good...but here at home, he unfortunately has a preconception that's been hammer'd into us all......thanks to dan rather on the 10pm news

i agree with his notion, but disagree with the thought

[nicobie]

[QUOTE=eclectica]I

Don't blame the president or the soldiers in Iraq. Blame the American people.

QUOTE]

I'd blame the french thinking perps like u 'lurkie.

U're not A man when u're women suckles up on gov money and u just bitch about how shittie it all is.

Talk about a joke~~~~~~~~~:ns:

[eclectica]

You find what you seek......You find things where you want to find them. You WANT to find NOTHING but bad in this country, and thats exactly what you will find.
When a country behaves in a brutal fashion it is the people in it who bear the ultimate responsibility. That's especially the case in a "democracy" such as what we have in the United States. The point for me is that the brutality displayed in Iraq is not out of character for the American people, who due to their isolation and comfort are not able to sympathize with others. I'm not saying that all Americans are bad but I think what happened in Iraq brings a collective shame.

And those who do not accept the shame and responsibility for the misdeeds, are like cheerleaders at the Special Olympics who cheer no matter how pathetic the results are.

Here's to you for unconditionally loving the country
:retarded:

[slx]

Here's to you for unconditionally loving the countrywouldn't that make a person close minded and blind to his surroundings?

sorta like the jimmy swaggart and jim baker followers....blind worship of a great entity

[mekajinn]

isn't it a citizen's duty to criticize the government, no matter what fiscal assistance is received?

if u get paid and just stfu u are doing no good whatsoever...


the fact that ppl think that E shouldn't offer his opinions because he gets govt money are missing the point.


he has no real choice over his citizenship... he has a right to complain even if he does get government money... as long as he doesn't use that money to physically threaten other citizens...


ffs... u get a guy every 4 fukken years moaning bout the govt with the specific intent of becoming govt funded as president... go moan the fuck bout him before picking on a guy just proferring an opinion on an internet chat board...


the fact that we all hate each other here is good for stability... if u get 2 distinct alliances things like WW1 happen :p

[mekajinn]

i respectfully disagree with you on that jimbob....unfortunately, we get most of our thoughts fed to us by the rupert murdochs of our country...only displaying negative, cause negative is what we all want to see when we pick up a paper or turn on the tube....it sells

we're such a lazy society, we assume the news is the gospel and unfortunately live our lives in fear of getting to know our crazy, deranged neighbors

e sited a good example of the way "we" are....on vacation, relaxed and unknowing, he did see the good...but here at home, he unfortunately has a preconception that's been hammer'd into us all......thanks to dan rather on the 10pm news

i agree with his notion, but disagree with the thought

right on...


murdoch is the australian goebles.

[mekajinn]

you are SUCH a fukken moron.

if brains were dynamite u wouldn't have enough to blow ur hair off...



and ur a fat cunt too :P

[mekajinn]

you are SUCH a fukken moron.


the fact that ur opinion is bought and paid for by ur country makes u nowt but a whore... do u understand that eh?


u do no-one any favours cuz ur just such a whore... the govt doesn't offer u payment in return for ur fucking opinion prick... it offers the money because u are one of it's babies... u do not have babies to become a clone of urself... no matter what parents may think...


u are politically so inept i expect to see u running for office one day... u are so far out of ur depth that u cannot even see how utterly ridiculous ur opinions truly are...

get a fucking education u stupid, STUPID man.

[nicobie]

You can't call 'mommy' a bitch and then expect to hide behind her skirt.


gee tttimmy if I didn' want u to die I might have not wanted to answer to this post.

Mekajinn is nastie talkin' about his mom.

[mekajinn]

gee tttimmy if I didn' want u to die I might have not wanted to answer to this post.

Mekajinn is nastie talkin' about his mom.


i was talking bout ur mom... i have a mum ffs... fukken colonials >=|

[slx]

it would illicit a response say dude....you ever consider investing in a cheap dictionary?

[Dollar_Girl]

No dear...you don't always 'know' what I'm up too..sometimes even 'displays of anger' are a manipulation on my part to achieve a DESIRED means to an end.


ur so lame, again u go off on your superior "you are all just flies in my trap" theory, about how you have some masterful manipulative plan and how everyone who responds to your posts is falling under your super-intelligent scheme, becoming just pawns in your unavoidable, masterful plan!

What exactly have u ended via your uber-intelligent manipulation buddy?

I know you like to believe and desperately convince everyone, that you're somehow above us intellectually and we can't possibly see how we've fallen tragic victim to your 'mainpulation', but dude, it's all in your head, whatever makes you feel better lill' buddy, whatever makes u feel tall.

Why dont u just pump helium into your ego to inflate it, instead of feeding us bullshit that just makes u look less-intelligent as each minute passes.

I'd give u some more pitty dood, but it's exhausting, u deserve way too much pitty. *sigh* maybe u'll be more worthwhile in another life... or in heaven where u think u will go. Float with the angels humpty, coz u ain't earned your wings.

[Dollar_Girl]

our friendship for one.



why are you SO SCARED of 'being taken advantage of' or admitting that you were tooken advantage of by me?



same as above.



damn that was mean..no I deserved a lot better than what I got from you. I DESERVED your friendship...caring...LOVE and RESPECT but got none of that..did I?

"tooken" dude? jesus christ, tooken???? wtf .

oh i see, so your desired effect of your intelligent manipulation, was to end our friendship. Good work lill' man! To be honest, lol, i think it would have ended quickly on its own anyway, coz well, the more i got to know u, the more i thought u were creepy. Yes, i said creepy.

[slx]

i believe harb was only trying to illicit a response from you girlie

[slx]

as much as it goes against my humanitarianism, i think i'm leaning towards voting with nic and e....

harb needs to be put down

[slx]

wtf are you STILL doing up and online? yesterday I noticed you were still online and posting at 0353 hours..then earlier today you were online around 1153a.m...i take it you don't work either..nor have the courage to own up to the fact?

Most working folks I know own at least two clocks..and do keep up with the time incessantly...do you even know what fucking day it is?lol....i don't work...haven't lifted a finger, so to speak since feb 1992...i don't have to work harb...i did work then so i can play now....sweet ain't it harb

and about what day/time it is...who gives a fuk, walmart & the local texaco's always open

[eclectica]

I came up with an idea for a good protest against the treatment of prisoners in foreign lands. There ought to be an enemy combatant march on Washington in which people put sandbags over their heads and handcuffs on their hands behind their backs. They could wear as a sign or a shirt either the words ENEMY COMBATANT or SHAME ON YOU. I don't like SHAME ON US because it makes no distinction between good and bad and has that collective bleeding heart guilt attitude. It is not provocative enough.

The logistics of a march with a sandbag on the head are not really good, so instead a vigil of standing in one spot would be better. I think the people standing there should not speak but should remain silent, for that is the effect of putting sandbags over the heads of people, that they remain inhuman and anonymous. Some good spots would be the U.S. Capitol, or across the Potomac river at the CIA headquarters. They definitely would have to wear the SHAME ON YOU signs in front of CIA headquarters.

[nicobie]

I honestly can't remember a 'really' stupid post by mekajinn.

[mass-delusion]

I rather doubt that protest marches do much good. They are the tool of the unempowered and desperate. Before the Iraq invasion, there were plenty of protest demonstrations, some of the largest ever organized. In the end, it made not one bit of difference.

Protests - as well as membership in protest groups - in the US today are under heavy surveillance. Technology has enabled police-state functions like never before. Don't think that by showing up at a downtown rally that you are virtually anonymous among the crowd. License plate numbers are recorded, and hidden cameras will be taking everyone's photo. The freedom of unrestricted public protest is becoming a rarity, as people are often forced into protest cages, often in out-of-sight locations. All it takes is one small incident and the whole lot of you are likely to be tear-gassed, shot with wooden plugs or exploding CS cannisters, beaten with batons, and/or hauled off to jail.

No, the government is simply too powerful, and the lemmings that support it too numerous.

[slx]

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country - Edward L. Bernays

spin daddy was right on with that one

and another......In almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons . . . who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind."

[eclectica]

Protest marches and petitions can be exercises in impotence, but it depends who is receiving them. In the case of president Bush, he is not one who is persuaded by protests and petitions. He can only be persuaded through brute force, because he is a brute himself. Send a petition with 10,000 signatures to president Bush and he will toss it in the garbage without even considering it. But send a plane with 10,000 gallons of fuel into the White House, and he will give you his attention.

[slx]

Send a petition with 10,000 signatures to president Bush and he will toss it in the garbage without even considering it. But send a plane with 10,000 gallons of fuel into the White House, and he will give you his attention.is that an example of the "squeeky wheel" concept i often hear about?

[eclectica]

lol, the quiet hinge gets no oil
-and-
the petition with 10,000 signatures will be tossed in the garbage without being read.

-but-

the squeaky hinge will get the oil
-and-
the mujahid pilot will be given a personal tour through the entire White House at 500 miles per hour, and a chance to meet the President and his staff in person.

[tim]

lol, the quiet hinge gets no oil
-and-
the petition with 10,000 signatures will be tossed in the garbage without being read.

-but-

the squeaky hinge will get the oil
-and-
the mujahid pilot will be given a personal tour through the entire White House at 500 miles per hour, and a chance to meet the President and his staff in person.

There is another saying in Japanese that states:

"The nail that stands up gets hammered down."

I find this saying to be the most true.

[slx]

you having an identity crisis lately?

lot's on recent changes in your http://3-3-3.org/forum/customavatars/avatar1_3.gif

[nicobie]

Send a petition with 10,000 signatures to president Bush and he will toss it in the garbage without even considering it. But send a plane with 10,000 gallons of fuel into the White House, and he will give you his attention.


What do think about the blue finger 'lurkie?

[mass-delusion]

Eclectica, you had asked earlier in the thread about the beheading videos being faked/edited. I noticed that too, for some reason they never show the hidden "middle part" of the scene. The fact is that it is simply not possible to cut through bone with a knife blade, so they must have stopped the camera (I wonder what word a beheading film director would yell to stop the action?) and used an ax or saw, then gone back to a knife before the camera rolled again.

Though I guess there are some of those "as seen on TV" knives that will cut through a steel nail and then slice a tomato, but that requires a special serrated edge knife, something the 'headsmen' in the video did not seem to have.

[eclectica]

Despite the outrage that the release of the initial photos created, the issue seems to have died down. The problem is that people are only outraged by photos or videos, and although there has been more documentation of abuse in other places like Cuba and Afghanistan, the public outrage isn't there because there is no visual documentation.

It turns out that the abuses that occurred were not from a few bad apples, but instead the incidents reported were the tip of the iceberg, and abuses were actually widespread. What Americans need, to really appreciate just how depraved and cruel their country is, would be to have a film made, which would be a documentary reenactment of the events that occurred with the tortures and killings of prisoners. It would be a gory movie like Mel Gibson's The Passion of the Christ. Just read the latest account of the killings of two people in Afghanistan here (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/EE0FE886-9938-4F5D-8E62-8268FB5DA400.htm). Mel Gibson would do a better service with his movie making abilities if he were to make a gory movie that brings to light the abuses people have suffered at the hands of Americans, rather than a movie featuring a megalomaniac cult leader that died 2000 years ago.

The government is trying to keep quiet about all the abuses because it does not want more anger directed towards the United States. But if they are to come clean with what has happened then they should be making all of this public and create a thorough investigation.

[eclectica]

There is an artist named Fernando Botero who has painted a series of 50 paintings showing the violence in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Here some news articles about that:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0412-06.htm
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,352869,00.html

Art would be a good way to fill in the gaps that photographs can not give us because in many cases there are no photographs. There was much more torture than what the few pictures which were leaked showed. There was also torture that occurred in Cuba and in Afghanistan. It reminds me of that question: If a tree falls in the forest and no one hears it, does it make a sound?. And if an injustice occurs but no one documents it with pictures or film, should we still be outraged? Thanks to this artist on his new project, those who need to see visual evidence in order to be outraged will have it available.

[slx]

there's nothing new here....it appears that he used the existing pic, that were widely published & news accounts as inspiration for his paintings

[eclectica]

There is an article in today's New York Times that describes a program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape; that is given to soldiers at Fort Bragg. It is to train them for torture that they may face when captured by enemies. That same knowledge from the military's SERE program was also used to efficiently torture the prisoners at Guantanamo Bay in Cuba. Here is an excerpt from the article:

the SERE model's embrace by the Pentagon's civilian leaders is further evidence that abuse tantamount to torture was national policy, not merely the product of rogue freelancers.

The article is located here:
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/14/opinion/14blochemarks.html
I have also posted it as an attachment.

[eclectica]

The Australian SBS Dateline had a presentation 2006-02-15 which included previously unreleased photos and some video from Abu Ghraib. An 88 MB video excerpt that is 13:10 in length can be acquired by way of this .torrent file:
http://www.ambiguous.org/sbs/SBS-Dateline-Abu-Ghraib-high-h264.mp4.torrent

The file will play properly with the codecs that come with VLC media player (http://www.videolan.org/) version 0.8.4a.

The ACLU has been trying through FOIA requests to obtain the photos released in the SBS presentation. They have not succeeded, and SBS did not say how it acquired the images and video. In addition to the Abu Ghraib material, the video clip features Amrit Singh of the ACLU, who I am attracted to.
:eatout:

Of course you can count on the American government to condemn the fact that the material was released by SBS rather than condemning the events that occurred at Abu Ghraib. I'm not sure why the American government is complaining, as none of the "bad apples" have received any more than a slap on the wrist for murdering and torturing prisoners throughout the World. They ought to be grateful that they got away with murder.
:)